World's first electric humanoid open-source robot
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Round Table China
11-19 13:0091
全文概览
The dialogue delves into the increasing significance of open-source software and its transformative impact on various industries, particularly robotics and artificial intelligence (AI). It highlights the shift towards open-source models, illustrated by China's Tian Gong humanoid robot becoming open-source, akin to moves in AI by Google's Meta's lalama and the development around Android. This move contrasts with closed-source platforms like OpenAI's ChatGPT and Google's Gemini, which retain exclusive control over their technologies. The conversation emphasizes the strategic implications of adopting an open-source approach, noting how it has reshaped the mobile tech industry and suggesting similar strategies could significantly impact robotics. Open-source initiatives are depicted as fostering innovation, collaboration, and widespread access to technology, allowing developers worldwide to build upon existing foundations. This contrasts with closed-source models, which maintain exclusive control over technology, potentially limiting access and stifling innovation. The dialogue also addresses misconceptions surrounding open-source software, clarifying that while some projects are indeed available for free, many offer models where users can pay for maintenance or additional services. It raises questions about the balance between promoting open-source collaboration and protecting intellectual property, highlighting the strategic considerations companies face when deciding to open-source their technologies. Overall, the dialogue underscores the potential of open-source models to drive innovation and collaboration across various sectors, acknowledging the strategic considerations and potential challenges these models present.
The dialogue delves into the increasing significance of open-source software and its transformative impact on various industries, particularly robotics and artificial intelligence (AI). It highlights the shift towards open-source models, illustrated by China's Tian Gong humanoid robot becoming open-source, akin to moves in AI by Google's Meta's lalama and the development around Android. This move contrasts with closed-source platforms like OpenAI's ChatGPT and Google's Gemini, which retain exclusive control over their technologies. The conversation emphasizes the strategic implications of adopting an open-source approach, noting how it has reshaped the mobile tech industry and suggesting similar strategies could significantly impact robotics. Open-source initiatives are depicted as fostering innovation, collaboration, and widespread access to technology, allowing developers worldwide to build upon existing foundations. This contrasts with closed-source models, which maintain exclusive control over technology, potentially limiting access and stifling innovation. The dialogue also addresses misconceptions surrounding open-source software, clarifying that while some projects are indeed available for free, many offer models where users can pay for maintenance or additional services. It raises questions about the balance between promoting open-source collaboration and protecting intellectual property, highlighting the strategic considerations companies face when deciding to open-source their technologies. Overall, the dialogue underscores the potential of open-source models to drive innovation and collaboration across various sectors, acknowledging the strategic considerations and potential challenges these models present.
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The Open-Source Shift in Robotics: TianGong and Meta's Llama
The move towards open-source in robotics, exemplified by China's TianGong robot's open-source initiative, parallels the trend seen in AI with platforms like Meta's Llama and Google's Gemini, contrasting with closed systems like Apple's iOS and Google's Gemini's restricted capabilities. This strategy impacts industry dynamics and user experiences, raising questions about the risks and benefits of open versus closed-source approaches.
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Exploring Open Source in Robotics and Beyond
Discussing the concept of open source, emphasizing its importance in making technologies like humanoid robots more accessible. Examines the benefits of open source software, using examples like Mozilla's Firefox, WordPress, and Linux. Reflects on the use of humanoid robots in marathons and the dual feelings of excitement and unease they evoke. Concludes with an analogy to simplify the understanding of open source for the audience.
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Open Source Analogies: Chicken Breast and Chinese Noodles
Two analogies are presented to explain open source technology. The first uses a farmer and a chicken breast, illustrating how open source software acts as a versatile ingredient that developers can customize into unique applications. The second analogy shifts to Chinese cuisine, comparing the creation of diverse noodle dishes from a single recipe to the development of various products from open source code, highlighting regional variations and personal adaptations.
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Misconception of Open Source as Free Software
Open source refers to software whose source code is available to the public for use and modification, but it does not necessarily imply that the software itself must be free of charge. Companies can charge for maintenance, support, or additional features, despite their open-source policies. The Android Open Source Project (AOSP) serves as an example, where modifications can be made while still being based on a proprietary OS. This model allows companies to monetize their contributions through services rather than direct software sales.
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The Dilemma of Open Source vs. Proprietary Software in Tech Development
The dialogue delves into the distinctions between open source and proprietary software, highlighting that while not all technology is open sourced, companies like Microsoft, Adobe, and Apple opt for proprietary solutions, keeping their source code exclusive. It further discusses the increasing trend of customization options in these companies' products without actually being open source, emphasizing the fundamental differences and choices tech companies face regarding open source development.
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The Duality of Openness in AI and the Role of Open Source Technologies
The dialogue explores the contrasting approaches of companies like OpenAI, Google, and Meta towards AI model openness versus the benefits of open source in software like Android and the internet. It highlights the potential for open AI models to democratize access for smaller companies and the historical role of open source in fostering innovation and accessibility.
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The Dual Impact of Open Source and Closed Systems in Tech Innovation
This dialogue explores the contrasting approaches of open source and closed systems in technology, using Android and Apple as examples. It highlights the benefits of open source, such as fostering innovation and collaboration, while also acknowledging the success of closed systems like Apple's in terms of maintaining a cohesive user experience and protecting intellectual property. The discussion underscores the importance of balancing innovation with controlled R&D strategies for sustained competitive advantage.
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The Benefits of Open Source in Promoting Collaboration and Innovation
Open source promotes secondary development by allowing other companies to build upon a foundational technology, such as a robot or AI platform. This leads to a collaborative community effort, improving code quality, showcasing developers' work, and encouraging collective innovation. Companies can also employ open source as a strategic move, like Meta's investment in AI to be freely shared, hoping to commoditize complementary products. The balance between open source and intellectual property laws ensures creators are protected while fostering a vibrant tech ecosystem.
发言人 100:00
Discussion keeps the world turning. This is round table.
发言人 200:10
What do Google's Android meta's lalama and the tienong robot have in common? Open source The move to open t.o. could reshape robotics just as Android changed mobile tech. But is this genius or risky business? And does birth order determine how successful, creative, or rebellious you'll be? Firstborn advantage or middle child syndrome? What is the truth?
发言人 200:37
Coming to you live from Beijing, this is Roundtable. I'm Hae Young for today's program. I'm joined by Steve hatherley and yushun in the studio, first on today's show with China's electric humanoid robot Tian Gong going open source, a new chapter begins in robotics, this move that mirrors what we've seen in AI with models such as meta's, lalama and Google's Gemma. But contrast this with OpenAI's ChatGPT and Google's Gemini, which keeps its full capacities behind closed doors in the world of operating systems. Apple's iOS is famously locked down, while Android thrives on its open source foundation. What drives these different strategies and how do they shape industries and user experiences? Well, let's sort of fast forward to today tell us about how 10 the robot stole the show.
发言人 301:38
So we can see that this story was all over the internet. Both domestic and global media outlets were reporting this, The developer China's Embodied Artificial intelligence robotics Robotics Innovation Center launched this open source initiative for tiano, which is the world's first full size purely electric humanoid robot. And this tienong boasts an average speed of 10 km per hour and can reach a top speed of 12 km per hour. Setting a benchmark in its class, it is capable of navigating various Terrans with ease, including, you know, many scenes like slopes, stairs, grass, gravel, and sand.
发言人 102:22
Yeah, pretty talented robot actually. Did you see the news as well? This robot was in because it was running a half marathon here in Beijing. Not fully, which is what I thought when I saw the headline in the story. It did the final 100 m, okay.
发言人 302:40
but the otherwise it's gon na be a huge battery on? Well.
发言人 102:42
it was funny. Yeah, exactly right. It was funny the picture, from the Global Times had the finish line and it had tiano, you know, going across the finish line looking very comfortable. And next to Tian Go was a human man who had just run a half marathon looking like he was about to breathe his final breaths. But anyway, you know, a little promotion.
发言人 103:06
There were also four legged robots serving as official pacers at the Hangzhou Marathon and they were setting the pace for the other runners. So we're seeing robots taking place in marathons these days. But back to jiangle 163 cm, so about 5 ft 3, 43 kg, so around £94. Yeah, full sized, the size of an average sized human adult, I would say.
发言人 203:35
Yeah, and just looking at the photos, yeah, it's great promotion for any type of robot, I suppose, in that setting. But also there's this slightly querying creepy feel. You know, if you're someone who's a little suspicious about how all this high tech is going to lead us, that kind of thing. Sure. And today we're talking about this concept of open source and what does it mean in the context of tech and maybe even beyond?
发言人 304:06
Yeah, I think the key point is about open. The term open source refers to something, you know, people can modify and share because its design is publicly accessible. And also, this is also the reason why the project or an the initiative of Tian Go is open source because, you know, it aims to propel humanoid robotics forward by making crucial technologies widely accessible. And this term open source originated in the context of software development to designate a specific approach to creating computer programs. So most likely when like coders or they're doing these codes and they're making the set of this codes open and publicly released and people can use this and maybe do edits on these.
发言人 104:57
yeah, open source software software that anyone can inspect or modify or enhance the way that they want. The source code is the part of the software that most computer users don't even ever see. It's the code that computer programmers can manipulate to change how a piece of software like a program or an app, how it works, programmers they have access to the source code, if they have access to that, then they can improve on that program. They can add features that they want, they can fix parts that don't always work correctly. Basically, they can manipulate the source code to how it works best for them. All right.
发言人 205:43
while much of the digital world relies on open source software in which the underlying code is published to the internet and made free for the developers to tinker with and build upon as they see fit. Mozilla's Firefox browser, the publishing platform Word Press, and the operating system Linux are just three examples, along with many other lesser known programs that essentially keep the internet running. And right before the show, we're kind of, we kind of had a group chat about what is a good analogy to make open source more accessible for everyone listening to this show who might have zero knowledge about tech.
发言人 106:27
Do you want to go first or do you want me .
发言人 206:29
to give it a stab?
发言人 106:31
Then you can go first. Okay, my analogy, we'll see if this makes sense. I have two analogies, 1 I call the chicken breast analogy. All right, so a farmer. Now remember, the analogy is to open source tech. So a farmer feeds a chicken, raises a chicken, puts a lot of work into the chicken to finally get the chicken breast. Now the chicken breast goes to the mart. Now the mart, anybody can go to the mart to buy that chicken breast. Anybody at all, they take that chicken breast home.
发言人 107:07
And if we think about the chicken breast as a blank canvas, then they can make any dish that they want to. They can add spices or sauces, they can add different vegetables to make their own chicken dish. And every restaurant that you go to will have a different chicken dish.
发言人 107:24
Now imagine that the tech, the open source tech is the chicken breast and the app developers are the chefs. So the chefs, the app developers, go buy that chicken breast or go get it for free, the open source tech, and then they can make their own dishes, they can make their own apps.
发言人 207:45
I'm sorry, but that's like the most Western example I can ever think of because Chinese people, we prefer wings over breasts of the chicken. But that's okay, that's okay, That's a really, I think it's a telling example and it explains it really well. Do you wanna have a go?
发言人 308:00
Of course? So let's make a Chinese, cook example then if, if we're talking about chefs, for example, there are so many ways to cook noodles, and then let's see, I think in my understanding, the open source means a chef developed. It's his own way of, you know, making a bowl of noodles and then he's publishing this recipe of this noodle and people think it is very delicious. And then that's why he's publishing this recipe and then the world knows the recipe, but maybe different regions, people have different tastes or different flavor, you know, noodles or the way that they eat noodles. So they modify the way that they maybe boil the noodle or just put toppings on the noodles. And then they people have different types of noodles, but they're based, they're making noodles based on this recipe. So that is how I understand people develop an app or product and making it open source and people can use it their own product.
发言人 209:11
Okay, in that sense then, is open source pretty much synonymous to free of charge?
发言人 109:19
Not necessarily open source software programmers, they can charge money for the software that they create or to which they can contribute in some cases, because open source licenses might require them to release their source code when they sell software to others. Some don't want to do that. So they find that charging users money for software services and support, rather than for the software itself, is a better way for them to make money. So it's a big misconception, and there's a lot of stories, a lot of articles written about this on the internet, it's a big misconception that open source means free, but it doesn't necessarily mean that.
发言人 310:02
yeah, I used to have this kind of misconception. Actually, the first or one of the first examples that I get to know about open source is AOSP, the Android Open Source Project. It's basically the system you can use this AOSP to modify and put different themes on your own Android version, but it is still based on Android, the operating system.
发言人 110:30
So the noodles.
发言人 310:32
the noodles, and that is completely free. And you can download a package on the internet. I was thinking while this probably just a, you know, goodwill that these developers are doing there, develop something good and publish it on the internet and people can use it for free. But actually, if we imagine that a lot of operating systems are based on Unix or Linux, and these, if everything is free and all of these companies can develop their own operating system based on these, and these are all free, and how can this company survive? So what I saw is that a lot of these companies, they are, of course, publishing open source products, and then they can charge for maintenance for their products.
发言人 111:22
Yeah, they're called maintainers, I think, like troubleshooting, fixing bugs within it and things like that.
发言人 211:28
Yes, okay, it's good to get that out of the way. And what are some of the prominent discussions surrounding open source? Well, we've talked about the latest, which is, you know, in robotics, Tian Go is a really good example, But what about in other areas.
发言人 111:48
other areas where people are having discussions about it? Well, first of all, I think we need to understand that not all tech is open sourced, right? Companies have a choice whether to release it as open source or not.
发言人 112:03
Closed source software would be the opposite, open source, often free, but not always as we just discussed, the closed source tech is what they call proprietary software. And the source code of those programs can be inspected or altered by its owners, but not by anyone. Microsoft, for example. Adobe for example. Apple for example, that's proprietary software, meaning it belongs to the company, meaning that's not open source. We can't go and know what their source code is, otherwise they probably wouldn't do very well internationally if everybody had access. So going open source or not going open source that that's an issue that pops up sometimes.
发言人 312:46
These tech companies, as you said, Microsoft Adobe and Apple, they are developing more functions that letting users customize their own products, but it's not open source because you're still just changing a little bit of options that these companies are offering you. So I think that is the biggest difference that when we're seeing it is open source or closed source. And just like ChatGPT, it is a .
发言人 213:14
close source.
发言人 313:15
it is open source ChatGPT. No.
发言人 213:17
it's not, it's of the prominent examples of, a close sourced AI model. If I may jump in and it was really, I suppose, a big irony here is that OpenAI, which is the company that owns ChatGPT, actually has. The word open in the company name when you're doing is exactly the opposite. And .
发言人 113:41
closed AI pretty much doesn't have the same ring to it.
发言人 213:45
Yeah, but it's really interesting that, you know, this has been a big debate within Silicon Valley and among policymakers over in the us whether companies should make artificial intelligence open source and ChatGPT being, you know, firmly in the camp of we're closing everything off to everybody. Plus Google's Gemini is also closed source, but Google, which is a fascinating company that it's got this other part of its AI system called Gemma, which is open sourced And also what made news earlier this year is Meta made its lalama AI model open source. And a lot of people were, you know, rejoicing because it means a lot for those who work in the downstream of this AI ecosystem, meaning that there are plenty of small companies which don't have the money to come up with their own AI, large language models, llum systems and they can just rely on this free AI system to build their own businesses. And that's just, yeah, that kind of echoes back to, you know, sort of the original philosophy of being open and getting everybody on board and exchange ideas, sort of that idealistic philosophy of at the inception of the internet. So guys, what do you think about, you know, all these different areas, all these different in AI in you guys mentioned Linux and Android and Apple in the smartphone models as such of this open source concept in Play?
发言人 115:30
Well, if we talk about Android, for example. Android is open in a variety of ways. For one thing, the Android operating system is based on code from the Android open source project. They call that AOSP and it's open source so that people can take that source code, and then they can create custom operating systems from it. Like you said Amazon's Fire OS, you that's used on the Kindle Fire and the Fire foam that's also based on this open source Android code.
发言人 116:00
If we don't have, if we don't have open source tech available to other companies, then think about how slow, number 1, how slow the development would be. And number two, if certain developments would be possible or not, think if every company had to create their own Android operating system or iOS, then not every company would be able to do that. App developers would be stuck moving nowhere. They need a base to work off of.
发言人 116:35
If you open up your phone and you look at the various applications on your phone, well, you can thank open source for that because those app developers are able to use that technology. And that's the biggest benefit for us. The internet itself, as far as I understand, was built with the idea of open source in mind. So therefore, when we open our phone and we go onto websites and we do everything that we open our phones for use applications, then we can thank open source for that.
发言人 317:06
Yeah, and also based on these things, as at least we can see a lot of these technologies, they are good enough.
发言人 317:13
And if we can develop based on these things, maybe we can develop even more and more modified products that we can see, for example, a lot of these TV smart Tvs, they are actually running Android system. They don't look like a phone, right? They have their own themes on TV sets. So that is how open source is working because in the core set, it is still an Android, but it is modified by the developers. But what we can see is that it is not like, okay, these developers are just all doing the good things. It is actually, there are some strategic things or plans I could see, you know, open source can also be this kind of plan for companies.
发言人 318:05
And the example of Android is also one of them by open sourcing and leveraging viral distribution. Actually, back then, iOS and Windows Phone were dominating the market and how can Android quickly expend that is their strategy? I think they are used making this Android open source and then all of the developers are all around the world can develop based on this and that is how it expands.
发言人 118:34
They can develop on it and they can train on it as well, right? Because when something is open sourced, that means it's publicly accessible. So students can easily study it so that they can learn how to make better software. So yes, we can experience the benefits through app developers, but also there's a large number of people who are studying the source code and thinking, okay, what can we learn from this and how can we improve on this so that five years later, 10 years later, the tech is even more advanced.
发言人 219:08
And that sort of rings true and also echoes, you know, the what we alluded at, which is, you know, the original idealistic philosophy of the internet and well, speaking of Android. Yes, there's that whole wide world of it. And if you look at internationally Android phones are more popular than Apple, but the other side of the camp could have this prominent example or representative of Apple, which is also a company that's done superbly well when it comes to, you know, keeping a closed system of their, you know, smartphones as well as the whole sort of Apple universe in that sense. And open source offers wide reaching benefits such as collaboration and innovation. But for creators who invest heavily in R&D research and development, how do the well? And also for other entities involved, how do the pros and cons balance out in your opinion?
发言人 120:15
Well, pros, some of the pros, it promotes secondary development, right? So if other companies have access to the platform, to the base, to the noodles, if you will, or to the chicken breast, then like we talked about extensively here, they have the opportunity to build on that.
发言人 120:38
And going back to the beginning of our story, talking about the world's first fully electric robot, humanoid robot, that that robot is the noodles, right? That robot is the chicken breast. The base is there. And now other companies will have access to that.
发言人 120:56
You know, we're using terms like source code and things like that, all these confusing terms. But basically just think of it as a blank canvas. Think of this robot as a blank canvas. Now, all these other tech companies have their opportunities to build upon that canvas, to paint the way that they want to. They're all collaborating together, and that's part of the beautiful idea of open source. And one of the biggest pros is a community of people all working towards the same goal.
发言人 121:24
This company here in China said, here's our robot, here's what we've come up with. Here you go, world. Now, how can you improve on this?
发言人 321:32
And actually, when I think this is a situation that is more reflecting a company's perspective, but there are different situations in the open source world because most likely the developers or the coders, they will put their codes or their products onto some platforms. For example GitHub, they put their codes on there and people can actually see their codes. And in this way, it is actually a way of improving their code quality because people can see it and maybe suggest improvements. And also, this is also a way of showcasing your code and building a kind of personal brand when maybe some tech companies see saw your codes on the platforms. And then in this way, from the perspective of big companies, you know, they are also building up, I think, a good image of, okay, I am making my product open and it is encouraging and inviting PPO to help us and we can do this together.
发言人 122:36
And that's one of the big benefits of why companies open source. They get a lot of attention for this and another big advantage, sorry, just one last one is that when all of these companies are working together on the open source tag, then it helps to build a unified platform. Maybe the platform isn't perfect in the beginning, but when everyone around the world is working on the same thing, then they can build that a unified platform, then they can take it to the next level, be unified there, and then just go until it's perfect .
发言人 223:07
and also on top of that uniform platform. Actually this could encourage a whole community to sort of scrutinize and have a look at what's going right and wrong. If there's a security vulnerability, the global developer community is there to spot it.
发言人 223:28
And speaking of the possible economic strategies behind the mindset of going open source for these mega companies, one example could be, let's say, meta when it planned to spend well, when you wonder why it planned to spend tons of money. I'm talking tens of billions of dollars developing its own AI, but only to give it away for nothing. Well, the strategy behind it could be called commoditizing the compliment. Let's say you are a hot dog producer. Hot dog buns are completely free as you've made it, so everybody can get their hands onto the dog buns, but. Then they'll need to buy your hot dogs, In this case, meta's free hot hot dog buns could be as open source AI. And when it maybe too early in Ai's development for Marcus Zuckerberg to know exactly what his money making hot dogs would be, those future hot dogs could be data sets. Meta will sell you to train it, or meta hardware that it's AI runs on.
发言人 224:42
And it's so interesting to talk about open source that you could say that maybe the other side of the coin is IP law, intellectual property law, which protects the creators. So it's really a delicate balance in this world of tech.
China's new electric humanoid robot is a world first, and the company behind this technology has chosen to make it open source. But what exactly does "open source" mean? What are the benefits for a company that adopts this approach? Additionally, what advantages does open source technology offer the general public? On the show: Heyang, Steve Hatherly & Yushun